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Curly
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2009, 08:25:24 AM » |
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Why don't we simply take all the characters and see if it's possible that they did it?
Arbitrarily starting with Cowl :
M.O. He would have no problem getting into the apartment, could well have Harry under surveillance, would have control over Bob not, just telling him to sleep and forget he was there but also possibly asking him for help to fix the tool he helped create.
Motive, Cowl's motives are shrouded in mystery, so we don't necessarily know whether he is with, against or indifferent to Harry.
Miscellaneous: Cowl knows that Harry has Bob elsewhere in the books,
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 unless explicitly stated otherwise Why are you assuming it has to be heartbreaking ? Signatures are a great way of saying something without getting personal. That which does not kill me has committed a grave tactical error.
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the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2009, 11:24:34 AM » |
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Why don't we simply take all the characters and see if it's possible that they did it?
Because we will end up with even more possibles and no way of ruling out any of them ?
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Curly
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« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2009, 11:32:23 AM » |
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Because we will end up with even more possibles and no way of ruling out any of them ?
So? We can't rule out anything until the books explicitly tell us what's going on, so we might as well do it thoroughly, at least it's something to do while we wait for Changes. It's not like we'll get a prize for having said the right thing no matter how much we just knew it.
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 unless explicitly stated otherwise Why are you assuming it has to be heartbreaking ? Signatures are a great way of saying something without getting personal. That which does not kill me has committed a grave tactical error.
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the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh
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« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2009, 01:26:55 PM » |
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So? We can't rule out anything until the books explicitly tell us what's going on,
I think there are other modes of logic that are more helpful that going through the entire cast in order, though. It's not like we'll get a prize for having said the right thing no matter how much we just knew it.
Well, it certainly gives me a warm glow of satisfaction to be proven right...
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Curly
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2009, 08:57:50 AM » |
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I think there are other modes of logic that are more helpful that going through the entire cast in order, though.
Such as? I like to have things out-there in a nice orderly way, plus debating how some minor character would cope with the challenge would be interesting and almost, but not quite that thing Jim is supposed to frown upon. Well, it certainly gives me a warm glow of satisfaction to be proven right...
It usually grants me a feeling of satiety, but not when I've essentially picked one choice out of a handful.
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 unless explicitly stated otherwise Why are you assuming it has to be heartbreaking ? Signatures are a great way of saying something without getting personal. That which does not kill me has committed a grave tactical error.
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Hoohaw
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2009, 09:39:56 AM » |
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Why don't we simply take all the characters and see if it's possible that they did it? Cool...how about...erh....Sanya? 
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SmartAlec
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« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2009, 03:17:38 AM » |
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We can certainly narrow it down.
- Knowledge. Whoever did it knew about Harry's lab, knew about Little Chicago, and has enough understanding of the theory and construction of the table, to spot a mistake in the table's construction and correct it.
- Opportunity. This person or persons would then have had to get past Harry's defences, wards and steel door without leaving a trace of their entry, during the couple of days or so between Harry's first and second attempts at using Little Chicago.
- Motive. That person or persons would need to have a reason for doing so; fixing Little Chcago is an act that both saves Harry's life and leaves him with a fully operational scrying table. Whoever did it would need to want that state of affairs to be so.
We can also compare this act to the way the characters have acted in the past, to see if it fits any established patterns of behaviour.
For example:
Rashid, the Gatekeeper
Knowledge: Possible. The Gatekeeper seems privy to future events; he may know of a possible future in which Little Chicago malfunctions.
Opportunity: I'm unsure to what extent the Gatekeeper's powers run; he may be mighty enough to enter Harry's apartment directly, foil whatever defences protect it, and be able to repair Little Chicago whilst hampered by the apartment's threshold.
Motive: Tricky. He seems a benevolent man, concerning Harry at least. However, taking it upon himself to avert a future in which Harry is killed using Little Chicago sounds like exactly the kind of paradox-causing event that Bob describes as bad news. How far would the Gatekeeper be willing to go?
MO: Doesn't quite fit. Previous actions by the Gatekeeper have either been passive (waiting for certain events to occur) or have been done so openly (meeting Harry in Summer Knight; sending a note in Proven Guilty). Why not simply add that the table is flawed, in his note? Or, send another one?
Lasciel's Shadow
Knowledge: Yes. She has been in Harry's head all throughout the construction of Little Chicago, and has powers of comprehension greater than Harry's.
Opportunity: Being right there when the scale model is used could potentially allow her to aid Harry during the spellcasting. See MO.
Motive: Clear. If Harry dies, he cannot be tempted to pick up the coin, and the Shadow ceases to exist. She would want to prevent that.
MO: Familiar. Lash has given aid unasked in the past, including spellcasting aid. She claimed that in order to protect Harry during the use of Little Chicago, he would need to pick up the coin; however, this may have been a lie in order to get him to do so. Having lied about it, Lash cannot then admit the truth without exposing her lie and weakening all claims she makes in the future that Harry needs the coin.
The Archangel Uriel
Knowledge: Possible. He may very well know of what is happening during Proven Guilty, informed of such by the angels watching over the Carpenter house.
Opportunity: One supposes that if anything can get inside Harry's apartment, it's an archangel - but could he do it without leaving a trace?
Motive: Murky. He may look favorably on Harry, and likely would want to help the Carpenter family. However, Uriel is an Archangel, and might only tend to intervene in matters that are important to the grand scheme. Plus, he might only do such things when instructed to by God, which means that it's not Uriel but God we'd need to think about.
MO: Tricky. Uriel has given power to Harry in the form of Soulfire, but only indirectly; nothing as hands-on as technical support concerning magical constructs. If he's supporting Harry during the spell itself, then one would think Lash would notice.
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« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 03:52:12 AM by SmartAlec »
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Gman
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« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2009, 04:07:26 AM » |
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Uriel is out of the picture becasuse of the rules of engagement as defined at the end of SmF. No further reasons are needed.
It seems to me that your questions apply equally well if it is Uriel who did it, though.
I disagree with your interperatation of the Rules of Engagement that rules Uriel out. My top candidates are Uriel, Lasiel, The Gatekeeper and Eb. Yes, a talented Wizard could figure out what Little Chicago is for. That is way different that finding out the hidden flaw that Bob and Harry missed. That is like saying I can identify that is a 747 Boeing Airplane or I can find an undiscovered problem in the plane, troubleshoot and fix it. That is a short list. Who can get thru Harry's defenses undiscovered and have the ability I mentioned before. Bob mentioned that he was impressed with Little Chicago and none of the supervillians he worked for in the past could have done it.
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« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 04:10:51 AM by Gman »
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Mira
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« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2009, 07:22:04 AM » |
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I disagree with your interperatation of the Rules of Engagement that rules Uriel out. My top candidates are Uriel, Lasiel, The Gatekeeper and Eb. Yes, a talented Wizard could figure out what Little Chicago is for. That is way different that finding out the hidden flaw that Bob and Harry missed. That is like saying I can identify that is a 747 Boeing Airplane or I can find an undiscovered problem in the plane, troubleshoot and fix it. That is a short list. Who can get thru Harry's defenses undiscovered and have the ability I mentioned before. Bob mentioned that he was impressed with Little Chicago and none of the supervillians he worked for in the past could have done it.
Lash is a mere shadow in Harry's head, even though she did separate herself from Lasciel. Unless she took over Harry's body and he wasn't aware of it. I believe if they knew about Little Chicago, both Eb and the Gatekeeper could fix it if they had the time to fully examine it and spot the flaw or even know what Harry's purpose was in making it in the first place.. They also had to get past Bob.. That assumes that they know about Bob, which I do not think they do.. That leaves Uriel as the likely one, though what his motives are at this point are unknown.
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svb1972
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« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2009, 08:26:48 AM » |
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Lash is a mere shadow in Harry's head, even though she did separate herself from Lasciel. Unless she took over Harry's body and he wasn't aware of it. I believe if they knew about Little Chicago, both Eb and the Gatekeeper could fix it if they had the time to fully examine it and spot the flaw or even know what Harry's purpose was in making it in the first place.. They also had to get past Bob.. That assumes that they know about Bob, which I do not think they do.. That leaves Uriel as the likely one, though what his motives are at this point are unknown.
Lash might be a mere shadow, but she has in the past, along with the help of Subconcious Harry managed to do some fairly serious things. I'm not saying Uriel is a bad choice, but I find it much more likely that it was Lash. I just don't think it can be anyone but these two, and my money's on Lash. I don't agree that the rules of engagement necessarily take Uriel out of the picture. Though I do wonder what his motivation would be. Lash has motive, oppertunity, and ability, she really fits much better.
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the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh
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« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2009, 08:47:28 AM » |
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I disagree with your interperatation of the Rules of Engagement that rules Uriel out. My top candidates are Uriel, Lasiel, The Gatekeeper and Eb. Yes, a talented Wizard could figure out what Little Chicago is for. That is way different that finding out the hidden flaw that Bob and Harry missed. That is like saying I can identify that is a 747 Boeing Airplane or I can find an undiscovered problem in the plane, troubleshoot and fix it. That is a short list.
Harry is in his early thirties or so at the time of PG. (Going on the evidence in TC, where he both grumbles about needing more sleep than he did in his twenties, and where Luccio refers to him as not 40 yet.) To my mind, it seems entirely plausible that any wizard with a century or so more experience than Harry would find how Little Chicago works and hwo to fix it as stunningly obvious and straightforward as you or I would find a problem that is perplexingly impenetrable to a five-year-old.
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knnn
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« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2009, 10:13:37 AM » |
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To my mind, it seems entirely plausible that any wizard with a century or so more experience than Harry would find how Little Chicago works and hwo to fix it as stunningly obvious and straightforward as you or I would find a problem that is perplexingly impenetrable to a five-year-old.
Except that it wasn't immediate to Bob, who seems pretty knowledgeable.
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DV Geek code:
DV knnn v1.2 YR4 FR3 BK++ RP+ JB+ TH WG+ CL(+) SW++++ BC- MC---(+) SH[Murphy+, Molly+]
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svb1972
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« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2009, 10:20:19 AM » |
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Except that it wasn't immediate to Bob, who seems pretty knowledgeable.
Bob, grudgingly admits to Harry that Little Chicago is a damned brilliant idea (TM) and that none of his previous owners had the skill to create it. I'm not sure it's clear that Ebenezer or The GateKeeper have the right skills to understand and fix Little Chicago, especially given the amount of time they would have had to fix it (very little). Also, I get the distinct impression that even for Eb sneaking into Harry's Apartment undetected would not really be all that simple.
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the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh
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« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2009, 10:39:34 AM » |
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Except that it wasn't immediate to Bob, who seems pretty knowledgeable.
And whose knowledge has been demonstrated repeatedly to have serious limitations. (No idea about Tera West's flavour of werewolf in FM; goes totally off on the wrong track when first trying to figure what kind of being the Nightmare is in GP; is either unwillong or unable to handle anything to do with angels and fallen in DM; admits in TC to knowing precious little about Summer.)
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the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh
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« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2009, 10:42:04 AM » |
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I'm not sure it's clear that Ebenezer or The GateKeeper have the right skills to understand and fix Little Chicago, especially given the amount of time they would have had to fix it (very little).
What makes you say that ? Over the course of PG, Harry does spend large parts of a day out of his apartment, certainly enough for whoever fixed it to spend an hour or two at it. Also, I get the distinct impression that even for Eb sneaking into Harry's Apartment undetected would not really be all that simple.
Well, Elaine knows how Harry thinks, and getting past his wards in SK was trivial for her; I suspect Eb probably knows how Harry thinks even better. Besides, with Eb being Blackstaff, all he'd have to do is nab Murphy, enthrall her into using her get-past-wards key, get her to stand guard while he does the fixing, and then tell her to forget it ever happened.
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