Epilogue ... and beyond! (MAJOR FLF SPOILERAGE)

[Phane]

I'd say that the limit of claiming new furies is based on the strength of the crafter. 
Amara and Isana both only have one fury each and seem to be less powerful than those with many furies. 
Bernard and Fidelias have two each and they come across as much stronger characters. 
Attis, though he was pretending to claim more furies, displayed his control over, I think, 8 powerful furies by changing their appearances to look like rogue furies. 
Sextus was powerful enough to claim a great fury from another High Lord when he erupted the volcano. 
And the Queen showed the most power of all of them by trying to claim 2 great furies at once while fighting Tavi and Kitai. 

An interesting thing to consider is if the Canim finally do get furycraft, would that start a civil war between the warriors and the ritualists?  Warriors with the ability to watercraft, and heal without paying in blood, would lessen the ritualists status among the castes.  Likewise, ritualists who can furycraft and cast spells would be impressive as well.  Varg with metalcrafting and earthcrafting would be a big furry tank.  Marok with the added bonus of firecrafting and windcrafting would be like a walking nuke.

[jimbutcher]

I don't like that sort of disparity.

Manifestly, the universe really doesn't care if things are fair.

Though if you toss in the Canim's population growth rate (very, VERY low, to balance their long lifespans) it changes the balance of racial power rather significantly.

Yes, an individual Cane might be the toughest thing on two legs, after multiple centuries of training in weaponry, soldiering, furycrafting, kung fu, and underwater basket weaving.  But he's neither invincible nor immortal, and if it costs you a thousand troops to put him down, then mathematically speaking you're coming out far, FAR ahead of the game over the long term.   I mean, bear in mind:  it takes you CENTURIES to produce one Cane like that.  Replacing him is going to be a far more epic effort.

(And besides which, it is a well-established practice in Alera to take down targets too tough to assault openly by using indirect means.   If a punk with a knife and one bead in three of the weaker furycrafts can get a High Lord killed, I don't imagine a High Lord-Level Cane would be any more of an obstacle.  Just harder to beat in a fight.)

Also throw in that the Canim have been rather more severely reduced in numbers than the Alerans, with a concurrent reduction in the stability of their culture--especially given that their people are going to be more exposed to other cultures that aren't their own.  They're going to have plenty of internal problems to deal with for quite a while and, if they want to have comparable levels of furycraft as the Alerans do, then they're essentially going to have to "become" more Aleran to get it.  Not by anyone's conscious will (though certainly by Tavi's conscious /intention/), but simply because the Aleran way of thinking about and using furies is the only way anyone knows to teach.

Tavi's hoping for a "melting pot"  effect, especially with the Canim and the Marat.  The Icemen he's not so sure about, but he's fairly sure if he can get them to live peacefully long enough for the veterans of the Shield war to die off, they can be relegated to the category of "weird but harmless neighbors."

[Lord Rae]

Jim's up early today...

Thanks a ton for clearing that up though... It helps frame the discussion in a much better light and hopefully should be the end of it. 

[Shecky]

Jim's up early today...

Correction: STILL up.

[TheBlueBeetle]

Yes, an individual Cane might be the toughest thing on two legs, after multiple centuries of training in weaponry, soldiering, furycrafting, kung fu, and underwater basket weaving.  But he's neither invincible nor immortal, and if it costs you a thousand troops to put him down, then mathematically speaking you're coming out far, FAR ahead of the game over the long term.   I mean, bear in mind:  it takes you CENTURIES to produce one Cane like that.  Replacing him is going to be a far more epic effort.

That would be one badsass Cane. Just thinking about a super High Lord Cane. Varg with Lord Aquatine's powers is a scary thing.

[MijRai]

Yes, an individual Cane might be the toughest thing on two legs, after multiple centuries of training in weaponry, soldiering, furycrafting, kung fu, and underwater basket weaving.  But he's neither invincible nor immortal, and if it costs you a thousand troops to put him down, then mathematically speaking you're coming out far, FAR ahead of the game over the long term.   I mean, bear in mind:  it takes you CENTURIES to produce one Cane like that.  Replacing him is going to be a far more epic effort.

Still, a Cane with centuries of experience at First Lord level furycrafting would be even more of a threat than any Aleran Legion. What would they be able to do/come up with?

I can't believe I am arguing with an author about how he book should work... Especially the author who writes such good books...

[John T Mainer]

Physical superiority doesn't really matter all that much in war.  Sure its a winner in a duel, but honestly a lot of superior warrior classes got wiped right out against troops who had a reasonable grasp of their weapon skills and good co-ordination.  Cane are pack hunters with an interesting hierarchy, but they are too rigid to change fast.

Humans a pesky little critters.  We can go centuries in a rut and leap centuries ahead if scared out of it.  We are untidy, contrary, illogical, and utterly able to follow a bad idea to victory.   Look at Max, he did stuff routinely because he was too dumb to know it was impossible.  Wiser heads who accepted the rules (Like our Cane) would not be able to toss their views of the possible out the door long enough to do something stupid and impossible.

Too stupid to know we can't win, to busy earth-crafting each other in class not to outbreed any non-Vord (and I don't think they enjoy it as much).  Lets face it, Max is the poster boy for why humanity will win.  Social enough to work together, dumb enough to try, tough enough not to give up, and smart enough to win through.

[Phane]

Tavi's hoping for a "melting pot"  effect, especially with the Canim and the Marat.

Well, he's certainly kicking off the "melting pot" with his own son being a Marat/Aleran hybrid, and he could get exactly that.  For instance, Baby D should gain a high level of furycraft thanks to his parents.  However, he could also gain his mother's ability to Bond with other creatures.  Well, what would happen if Baby D Bonds with a Canim, like say maybe one of Nasaug's pups? 
The Bonded Canim would gain furycrafting in a major way.  Following Kitai's example, the Canim could learn as Baby D learns.  Then the Canim could demonstrate to his people, simply to friends or family.  True, it would be the Aleran way of doing things, but they're in the Aleran lands and living among its people.  Eventually, the demon ways will become the Canim ways, as would those of the Marat. 

Looking at the Vord at Canea, a few questions....
Was the Senior Queen the only one capable of upgrading her children or could any of the Queens do it?
I ask because if any of the Queens can improve their children, how long before there are vord living in the sea?  Or at least taken sharks, whales, and even leviathans?  Would it take that long to get swimming vord?
The junior Queen should know by now that her mother has been killed.  Would she sit back and wait for her enemy to come for her, or would she go after them?

[LanceManley]

IF the "melting pot" effect was achieved, perhaps the form of government would be like a council of four with a representative from each species.
With this "council" each species retains its sovereignty while answering to a higher power. Similar to the European Union.

It would be cool to see the changes in Alera when the Vord in Canea decide to finish the job. The impression that I got from the end of the books is that, due in part to Tavi's "thinking outside the box", Alerans will no longer be completely pendant solely upon furycraft. It is understood that scientific endeavors and inventions will begin to spring up. It will put Alera on the technological curve that our society is on. i.e. Alchemists and industrialization. After 200 years Aleran technological levels would be similar to Renaissance era.

Another possibility is that the Aleran population's overall ability to furycraft would be increased. Since the disappearance of the great fury Alera, the wild furies in Alera would become more violent. In response the Aleran population would naturally have to grow stronger in order to survive, this is especially true of the freemen Alerans living in steadholts, perhaps those living in major cities would not have any noticeable change, but those living out in the frontiers would have to adapt.

The legions would also change, if technologies in Alera were to keep advancing new squadrons would have to be invented. Soldiers armed with flintlock rifles and pistols. Field carronades would also be commonplace. Plus the invention of the sniper squadron would change the field of battle. Knights Aeris using their wind furies to create lenses over the sights of their rifles.

With all these knew advancements, I don't think the Vord would be as menacing if they tried to attack Alera.

[nerd1]

Yes, an individual Cane might be the toughest thing on two legs

I think for me this boils down the main concern that I had with the epilogue (please don't smite me or name the imbecilic monkey in your next book after me)

After 6 books of Tavi making decisions that I generally approved of, and ones that I openly cheered for in some scenes, the idea of the change to merit-based furycrafting (to me) was to make Aleran society more equal and fair, with less petty lordlings with the power to explode mountains. One of the reasons that Mr. Butcher gives for the development of the suffocating, non-innovative nature of Aleran society of Tavi's time was the desire to keep power by the Lords (see here - http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11756.600.html ). This decision certainly seems to rectify that, and seems to put Aleran society on a much better path forward.

However, when combined with giving the most powerful creatures (alone, without totems or furies) on the planet the abilty to use more power (Furies), is troublesome.

Granted, the explanation above about birth rates, and the differences in Canish society, might make the Canish less likely to horde power than Aleran lords - it still seemed different to how Tavi acted throughout the books -  cautious, carfeul, and methodically well thought out....like when he tells Gaius that he is also taking the Canim back to their homeland to make sure that they keep their word.

Regardless of the mechanics of the world of Carna, which Mr. Butcher enlightens us on in the post above, the decision to give Furies to the Canim, even if it is based on his assessment / respect of their society, the current state of the world (semi-destroyed) seems very very hopeful (if not naive). It is hard to forget a character like Sarl, and not imagine what he could do with 600 years of furycrating, blood magic, etc...

I guess for me the issue is that this decision (giving Canim furycraft) seems to invite the same sort of stagnation, along with the possible power imbalances, that made the First Lord consolidating power that is described in the quoted post necessary in the first place...

I do want to be clear that I am most certainly not arguing with the author about the world he created, merely pointing out that one of the final decisions by a character that I followed for 6 books seems troublesome to me...Tavi would know about the reasons for the consolidaton of power for the "first" First Lord (if not, he experiences enough rotten super powerful High Lords to understand this intuitively), he talked about the stagnation of Aleran creativity and society, and, as is stated in Mr. Butcher's post about the Canim is that "they're essentially going to have to "become" more Aleran to get it". Thus, the upcoming changes to the Canim society would seem to make it even more likely that they would repeat the Aleran mistakes of the past that lead them to a dying civilization...I guess, for me, this would just be the one decision that Tavi makes throughout the books that I completely disagree with...and one that I personally see as making the Canim society as susceptible to having super powerful lords that can level mountains and run their society into the ground as the Alerans did pre-Vord...

That's it. Also, just to be clear. I think Alera and Dresden are my two favorite books series of all time...as is evidenced that this is the only message board that I have ever, ever posted on...