Help Me - I want to run Dresden

[xiaolung]

This is less a question and more “advice seeking.”

I have often considered playing Spirit of the Century (and now Dresden Files) over the years, but have avoided it because of the players I have in my relatively small gamer pool. I don’t think I’ve got the group for it, but am considering giving it a try with them anyway (read: my group is too small. If I don’t get them onboard, I won’t be gaming with FATE at all) because I know they are interested in ‘aspects’ of this game.

First, what do you do about power gamers? I ask this because a couple of players are interested only in “winning” an RPG. They’re not interested in story. They just want to “game.” They also enjoy D&D 4e more than World of Darkness because they have no desire to “play losers” (WoD Changelings are ‘losers’ in their minds – I’m not making this up – it’s their words). Anything that creates a setback of any kind makes them losers in their minds. I am afraid Aspects would be thought of in terms of “how much power can we get without giving the GM anything to make us suck”. Stats are generated to give the most efficiency as well. Even explaining the intent of the game (your ideas give ME the kinds of things you find cool about the game and want to get out of the game – and allow US to tell a good story) and the intent of Aspects won’t be enough. I still won’t get any Aspects that are double edged (I’ll get lots of “Strong as an Ox” type Aspects – nothing that deliberately gives a GM a tag to hang a problem/conflict/story on. And needless to say, there is no way either of them would ever take up Sponsored Magic). I am also really afraid that this would translate into the City creation as well. We might end up creating something that is completely bland or devoid of anything interesting just because they will seek to remove the teeth out of anything that can harm them. This is not just blind guessing about the type of reactions I expect, this is my experience with them over the course of 10 years of playing other games. Should I just simply avoid them (see comment regarding small gamer pool) or is there some other advice you can give me?

Second, I also have a player who gets overwhelmed by FATE. A few years ago, so I could play SotC as a pickup game, I had a night of character creation. All three agreed. Two (not the two in the above question) got into character creation after they figured it out how cool Aspects were. But she froze. She had a very difficult time with the free-form process. We sailed through the first two phases, but couldn’t start on the third until she was done – and this just added to the pressure. Eventually, she gave up (about Phase 3) and almost cried. It was not fun for her. It was too taxing. She couldn’t think of anything. We tried gently steering her in the right direction (there was no hard sell or pressure. We patiently waited for her – the stress she created was in her own mind), but the idea of Aspects and of creating something tres cool on the fly overwhelmed her. This is not the first time this has happened. Other more free form indie games have given her the same type of headache. She is the type who simply wants to visualize a character, create her stats and start to play her role. Background and character comes during play. Anything else is too much. Because of her emphasis on character during play, I think she will really enjoy the game and the control it gives the player once she starts playing, but getting her over the hump of character creation is going to prove to be very difficult. My thoughts are to avoid her as a player altogether but she brings her hubby in to play as well – and he liked the Aspects part of the game (see small gamer pool comments again). I know I could give her the “fast play” rules and then run everyone else through it, but then her character would be somewhat divorced from the City and I believe she would ultimately be getting the short end of the stick for gameplay. How would you handle someone like this?

So, just a couple of advice questions from someone who really wants to try this game out. Is my group too dysfunctional for this game? Any advice would be helpful.

[iago]

First, what do you do about power gamers? I ask this because a couple of players are interested only in “winning” an RPG. They’re not interested in story. They just want to “game.” They also enjoy D&D 4e more than World of Darkness because they have no desire to “play losers” (WoD Changelings are ‘losers’ in their minds – I’m not making this up – it’s their words). Anything that creates a setback of any kind makes them losers in their minds.

These are not people I enjoy playing with, and honestly, not people that I think will thrive in the Dresden Files RPG. 

It might be worth pointing out to them that by their definitions, Harry Dresden is a loser.  Dude is all about setbacks. 

Second, I also have a player who gets overwhelmed by FATE. A few years ago, so I could play SotC as a pickup game, I had a night of character creation. All three agreed. Two (not the two in the above question) got into character creation after they figured it out how cool Aspects were. But she froze. She had a very difficult time with the free-form process. We sailed through the first two phases, but couldn’t start on the third until she was done – and this just added to the pressure. Eventually, she gave up (about Phase 3) and almost cried. It was not fun for her. It was too taxing. She couldn’t think of anything. We tried gently steering her in the right direction (there was no hard sell or pressure. We patiently waited for her – the stress she created was in her own mind), but the idea of Aspects and of creating something tres cool on the fly overwhelmed her. This is not the first time this has happened. Other more free form indie games have given her the same type of headache. She is the type who simply wants to visualize a character, create her stats and start to play her role. Background and character comes during play.

...

How would you handle someone like this?

I'd handle her using "on the fly" character creation.  It exists in Spirit of the Century, too -- you may want to look it up and consider how that approach would work with her.

[Rechan]

You might also suggest that she make her character by herself. Not do the novel thing (granted, but come up with aspects) on her own. Or at least think about it, write down any ideas ahead of time.

[xiaolung]

These are not people I enjoy playing with, and honestly, not people that I think will thrive in the Dresden Files RPG. 

It might be worth pointing out to them that by their definitions, Harry Dresden is a loser. 

I know. And that's my problem. Pointing this out won't help much when they create their own characters.

They still love the books, though.

I would really like them to thrive in the world, but they may not be up to the challenge.

[iago]

I would really like them to thrive in the world, but they may not be up to the challenge.

Yeah. I'd just make sure not to talk to them about this with any sort of judgment inherent in it. "Y'all won't have fun with this system or with the kinds of characters that make sense in the Dresden Files universe." Leave it at that, see what they have to say.  This isn't anti-your-friends, it's just case of a bad fit.

I think the notion that games *should* fit every player well is kind of poisonous.  The DFRPG definitely wants players who enjoy complex, flawed characters.

[iago]

That said...

There's a fun little "trick" in Fate in general that may not be obvious to your friends. Creating flawed characters makes you more powerful. You're less of a loser by playing someone who can lose. From a strictly gamey, min-maxy perspective, creating characters with big honking flaws means you'll get more currency faster that you can spend to make your character be more awesome when the moment really needs it.  You could *try* selling your friends on this idea, but it's tricky.

[SoulCatcher78]

That said...

There's a fun little "trick" in Fate in general that may not be obvious to your friends. Creating flawed characters makes you more powerful. You're less of a loser by playing someone who can lose. From a strictly gamey, min-maxy perspective, creating characters with big honking flaws means you'll get more currency faster that you can spend to make your character be more awesome when the moment really needs it.  You could *try* selling your friends on this idea, but it's tricky.

This occured to me after reading some of the playtester notes.  Replenishment of fate points (so that I can have a higher probability of succedding on my over the top chandalier swinging moves) is going to be critical to the player who wishes to be "flashy".  Characters with flaws have a higher chance of being faced with "compels" (if I'm using the terminology correctly) than characters who are created without flaws.  How you interpret the flaw when compelled makes the story interesting (there were some excellent examples given here in the comments).  Being hit with a compel doesn't mean the character is forced into the worst case scenario of the flaw (although it is possible). 

This is one of the more interesting things about the system so far (and why it works so well in the Dresdenverse).  You don't want to play a perfect charactrer, those are the boring ones.

[Bosh]

For the powergamers, I wouldn't worry about them making combat wombats since it is VERY hard to make an unbalance/overpowered character in Fate and as Fred has already mentioned generally in Fate the flawed characters are the powerful ones (probably the best way to be a munchkin in Fate is to be a fishmalk and try to milk Fate points by doing random crazy stuff all the time, but that can be reined in pretty easily by a good GM).

With the powergamers I'd try to steer them towards aspects that are awesome but can still be compelled. For example:

Looks like a badass: good for many things but can be compelled to make people notice him and focus on him when he's trying to maintain a low profile.

I don't take any lip: quite a bit like Dresden complete lack of diplomatic abilities (at least in the earlier books) where he needlessly antagonizes all kinds of people.

I can take him alone: gets a compel to take a baddie on one-on-one.

That sort of thing, basically give them compels to do muscleheaded stuff and they'll get Fate points for acting "badass" and they might even like the game. Probably cater to what they want a bit and give them plenty of jerky enemies that disrespect them personally that they can pound into the floor. A bit of mindless violence can be fun and the aspects could get them in the mood of comic book style smackdown, which seems to be what they want.

[SoulCatcher78]

For the powergamers, I wouldn't worry about them making combat wombats since it is VERY hard to make an unbalance/overpowered character in Fate and as Fred has already mentioned generally in Fate the flawed characters are the powerful ones (probably the best way to be a munchkin in Fate is to be a fishmalk and try to milk Fate points by doing random crazy stuff all the time, but that can be reined in pretty easily by a good GM).

With the powergamers I'd try to steer them towards aspects that are awesome but can still be compelled. For example:

Looks like a badass: good for many things but can be compelled to make people notice him and focus on him when he's trying to maintain a low profile.

I don't take any lip: quite a bit like Dresden complete lack of diplomatic abilities (at least in the earlier books) where he needlessly antagonizes all kinds of people.

I can take him alone: gets a compel to take a baddie on one-on-one.

That sort of thing, basically give them compels to do muscleheaded stuff and they'll get Fate points for acting "badass" and they might even like the game. Probably cater to what they want a bit and give them plenty of jerky enemies that disrespect them personally that they can pound into the floor. A bit of mindless violence can be fun and the aspects could get them in the mood of comic book style smackdown, which seems to be what they want.

Consider that idea stolen!

[iago]

Excellent judo-flip there, Bosh. Yeah: figuring out flaws that make the character more of a badass (though in ways that always complicate the situation) is an interesting way to try to address the "loser" concern.