(spoilers) Black Council

[Der Sturmbrecher]

Simple questions:

1 Does it exist?
1 A If so, what is it's ultimate agenda? Distributing hexenwulfen belts, exploding heart curses, and the other chaotic muck we've seen makes for great novels, but what is the ultimate point?
1 B Who is involved?
1 C When did this body form?
2 If not, then are the incidents related by Harry to be connected the work of different parties, or just one person as opposed to a council?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

1 Does it exist?

I'll take the "no" position here.

2 If not, then are the incidents related by Harry to be connected the work of different parties, or just one person as opposed to a council?

Different parties.

Some are the fault of Cowl and possibly his Circle, some of Mavra, some of Nicodemus, some of Tessa, some of the Red Court and their sorcerous auxiliaries.

Other potential candidates who may or may not have some overlap with the above are; the Justin/Maggie/Lord Raith Outsiderbane-breeding cabal; Maggie's idealist White Court faction as mentioned by Luccio in TC; Kumori's necromantic utopians; Titania working through Elaine; and Kemmler.

[that1guy6979]

I'll take the "no" position here.

Different parties.

Some are the fault of Cowl and possibly his Circle, some of Mavra, some of Nicodemus, some of Tessa, some of the Red Court and their sorcerous auxiliaries.

Other potential candidates who may or may not have some overlap with the above are; the Justin/Maggie/Lord Raith Outsiderbane-breeding cabal; Maggie's idealist White Court faction as mentioned by Luccio in TC; Kumori's necromantic utopians; Titania working through Elaine; and Kemmler.

Is Kemmler on the list of officially dead?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Is Kemmler on the list of officially dead?

I am unconvinced that "officially dead" would suffice to stop Kemmler.

[Ms. Duck]

MY postion:

Yes, they exist. It's a group of necromancers amd the remaining black court elders, attempting to take over the world. The confusion is caused by the fact that while they have simillar desires, they have very differnt motives ( Kumari and Mavra, for example, do not agree on the value of human life) and thus dont co-ordinate well.

The Black Elders are attempting to cause wars between the established powers in to weaken their enemies-- historically it took the white court, with assitance from the white council and probably the fey as well, to put the black elders down. Now they are returning, and want to make dang sure the allaince will not form again.

the necromancers may be using the elders as catspaws or vice versa, at some point they included at least some  beliveres in 'the end justifies the means' in their ranks.

[sjmcc13]

1 Does it exist?

I tihnk so, but not on the scale Harry thinks it is.

1 A If so, what is it's ultimate agenda? Distributing hexenwulfen belts, exploding heart curses, and the other chaotic muck we've seen makes for great novels, but what is the ultimate point?

No idea, though overthrowing the WC, and possibly the accords, seems likely.

1 B Who is involved?

The only people in the books who seem to scream involvement (to me) are Victor sells and Madrigal Raith as initiate/prospective members, Vittorio Marlova, Kumori, Peabody, and Cowl as members and Madeline Raith as a patsy. Cristos could be a member, but he seems more to be an idiot to me (and Eb states that would be worse)

1 C When did this body form?

Probably within the last century or so. The wizards have been falling behind the times, and it is becoming easier for warlocks to hide if they are careful, as the WC has done a good job making the minor practitioners not like them and has manpower issues. My persional theory is that the Black Council started as a group of warlocks who were able to hide their presence from the wardens and organized possibly founded by a couple WC wizards who realized that the changes in society would let them hide their actions easily, and started training apprentice warlocks in secret, whenever they found someone who had not gone fully insane first.

[Landing]

There is no black Council, it is just as number of different secret groups that work for there own end and Harry is mistakenly thinking they are all one group...BUT! there is a SUPER Black Council that is secretly controlling these secret groups for its own ends. Take that Neurovore 

[ballplayer72]

Is Kemmler on the list of officially dead?

according to bob they "killed him pretty good.... a couple of times".      (or some such.  quotes kinda loose.  see DB)

He's got a track record of coming back from the dead.  So unless jim comes out and says "no that dudes dead. for reals." he's possibly still alive. or at least able to return to life or some semblance of it

[Ms. Duck]

at this point im not sure we evere will get more detail on kemmler, largely because the charchter is an homage of JB's..towards the old RPG (warhammer, i believe) necrmancer and liche, Kemmler. It's more of a wink wink on JB's part then an actual introduction of a bad guy.

kind of like how several modern fantasy authors have their charchters make refernces to needing help, but the wiaxard in chicaog is off somewhere not to be found..

[Stuck]

yes i think they exist and are going to be super kickass powerful,  which is why harrys ramping up to complete epic-ness.  Besides his personal power, he's gathering powerful allies behind him(Knights of the Sword, Archangels, Grey Council,Fae, Odin, etc).  heck i think he may end up being on par with Mab, Titania, and the Erlking(with Toot ascending to full Sidhe and Harry's personal Fae Knight/General.)

Harry was born to have power over Outsiders, who have a serious Cthulu-esque vibe. So i say the leaders are a cult of those who want whatever power they feel they can get by allowing a full incursion of Outsider Lords(He Who Walks Behind being one of that court) and maybe some Lucifer thrown in. This cult is manipulating the lesser dark powers, including members of the Denarians, Vampire Courts, etc.  Harry's fate is being manipulated by God and other forces of good to kick some black magic ass.

[Sh33p]

Simple questions:

1 Does it exist?

Given all the effort that's gone into hyping them, it'd be a profound disappointment if they didn't. Anticlimactic to the point of throwing the book out the window and demanding X-years of one's life back, in all likelihood. And not in the LOL Jim is so EEEEVIL! way either.

1 A If so, what is it's ultimate agenda? Distributing hexenwulfen belts, exploding heart curses, and the other chaotic muck we've seen makes for great novels, but what is the ultimate point?

Seems to be "tear down the old world order." A few members we've seen so far add "and put something new in its place." Whether or not the something new is better is pretty subjective, but their methods do a dandy job of invalidating any idealism they might profess.

1 B Who is involved?

We don't really know. Thorned Namshiel (I think) is really the only die-hard confirmed member, with Cowl and (maybe) Kumori being strong candidates for membership as well. Mavra is another possibility. It's fully possible that Lord Raith, Maggie Dresden, and Justin DuMorne are/were all involved in it too, but we can't say for certain. Maggie's ideals seem to roughly line up with some of what we've heard of their motives. It's possible that Kemmler was involved too, but unlikely: he seems to have been a rare case of a true, independent, puppy-kicking, bike-stealing, barn-burning Dark Lord.
 

1 C When did this body form?

Presumably within the life time of Maggie Dresden, if not sooner.

2 If not, then are the incidents related by Harry to be connected the work of different parties, or just one person as opposed to a council?

Possible, arguably realistic, but considerably less entertaining and nowhere near as satisfying. Seriously.

[Drachasor]

Seems to be "tear down the old world order."

Agreed.

Thorned Namshiel (I think) is really the only die-hard confirmed member, with Cowl and (maybe) Kumori being strong candidates for membership as well. Mavra is another possibility. It's fully possible that Lord Raith, Maggie Dresden, and Justin DuMorne are/were all involved in it too, but we can't say for certain. Maggie's ideals seem to roughly line up with some of what we've heard of their motives. It's possible that Kemmler was involved too, but unlikely: he seems to have been a rare case of a true, independent, puppy-kicking, bike-stealing, barn-burning Dark Lord.

It seems clear to me that Cowl is a member.  He wants to tear down the old world, and seems to be involved in the whole outsider thing and so forth.  I mean, Cowl was one of the big reasons Harry even proposed a Black Council.

[ebliss1]

I think we have to assume that it exists. My rationale for this, Word of Jim from his interviews and Q&A sessions clearly states that he is a lazy writer and does not invent characters or concepts for no purpose. Given the amount of writing that he has done to build up the mystique of the Black Council and how far down the path of finding out who they are and how to stop them he has devoted in the books thus for, for there to be no Black Council and it all to be a wild goose chase for Harry would be A) a disappointment to fans and B) a whole lot of wasted effort and material on Jim's part.

Sorry neurovore, I know you cling to the "there is no Black Council" concept like a junkie clins to his last dimebag, but the sheer weight of material Jim has produced about the Black Council and his own stated writing habits preclude this just being a figment of Harry's overactive imagination trying to put a collective face on a lot of disparate unconnected instances.

[nthnclls]

The Black Council certainly exists.  They're the remains of Voldemort's "Death Eaters", and their ultimate goal is to prepare the way for the return of their master.



Wait...

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Given all the effort that's gone into hyping them, it'd be a profound disappointment if they didn't. Anticlimactic to the point of throwing the book out the window and demanding X-years of one's life back, in all likelihood.

Speak for yourself; I think it would be awesome.

Bear in mind, on a meta-story scale, we are talking about a hypothesis that the hero of an ongoing mystery plot proposed a third of the way into the story as a whole, and has not had disprovved by halfway through the story as a whole.  It does not at all seem to me that this hypothesis turning out to be flat wrong is incompatible with how mystery plots work.

Thorned Namshiel (I think) is really the only die-hard confirmed member,

Not hardly. Mab feeds Harry some ambiguous statements, Harry leaps to that conclusion, Mab pretty much immediately smacks him down with her whole Voice of the Mysterons thing; I really think she's trying to distract him from something, and I think that something is that Namshiel (or whoever it was using Hellfire at Arctis Tor) was working for Mab.