(spoilers) Black Council

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I think we have to assume that it exists. My rationale for this, Word of Jim from his interviews and Q&A sessions clearly states that he is a lazy writer and does not invent characters or concepts for no purpose. Given the amount of writing that he has done to build up the mystique of the Black Council and how far down the path of finding out who they are and how to stop them he has devoted in the books thus for, for there to be no Black Council and it all to be a wild goose chase for Harry would be A) a disappointment to fans and B) a whole lot of wasted effort and material on Jim's part.

I don't buy b for an instant.

Harry spends all the time between GP and SK hunting a non-existent cure for Susan's condition. He spends more than ten years absolutely fixated on having killed Elaine, and in denial of evidence to the contrary.  Harry spending a few years hung up on a theory that is totally wrong is absolutely and utterly in character for Harry and fits with a lot of things Jim has put a fair amount of effort into setting up.

[Josh_W]

I think we have to assume that it might not exist. My rationale for this, Word of Jim from his interviews and Q&A sessions clearly states that he lives, first and foremost, to torture his readers.

  Fixed.   

[Jared]

Harry spends all the time between GP and SK hunting a non-existent cure for Susan's condition.

We don't know that there wasn't a cure for Red half-turned. We only know that Harry was unable to find one and that Lea said she was able to suppress that side of Susan and Martin. If Harry was better, smarter, and had more time and resources, it is possible that he could have found one.

[OlosBC]

We don't know that there wasn't a cure for Red half-turned. We only know that Harry was unable to find one and that Lea said she was able to suppress that side of Susan and Martin. If Harry was better, smarter, and had more time and resources, it is possible that he could have found one.

In point of fact, he DID find a cure, though he had to kill susan to implement it.

[Scop]

If the BC didn't exist, but all the bad was really happening because of a bunch of individual baddy groups were working independently, but Harry and friends, being human like the rest of us, percieved a pattern where there really wasn't one (like finding bunnies in the clouds), so they formed their own "conspiracy" in response, becoming what they feared - a group moving in the background controling things so they turn out their way.

Would be an interesting outcome...

[Gman]

I am sure there is more than one cure for being a half vampire. Mother Winter said her Unraveling could do it. I would say, someone with Archangel or some of the more powerful old Gods level power could do it. The problem is how would Harry get them to do him that favor? Let's say someone could be resurrected, it's possible, but real unlikely. It isn't easy to get God to do it for you. I could write a letter to the President asking to stay in the Lincoln bedroom for the summer. It could happen, but it's real low odds he'd say yes. Harry tried to find a cure and failed.

[Jared]

In point of fact, he DID find a cure, though he had to kill susan to implement it.

A viable cure, then.

[Phariah]

I am sure there is more than one cure for being a half vampire. Mother Winter said her Unraveling could do it. I would say, someone with Archangel or some of the more powerful old Gods level power could do it. The problem is how would Harry get them to do him that favor? Let's say someone could be resurrected, it's possible, but real unlikely. It isn't easy to get God to do it for you. I could write a letter to the President asking to stay in the Lincoln bedroom for the summer. It could happen, but it's real low odds he'd say yes. Harry tried to find a cure and failed.

there were glimpses of a cure. it wasn't non existant. like u G i automatically went to Mother Winter's unraveling. than add in when Lea put the demon half to sleep, if that could be worked out it might be developed into a cure. also add in the bloodline ritual. if that was done on a smaller scale it could possibly cure a halfer that was close in line to the sacrificed Ramp. these were things Harry didn't know of before hand or didn't have access to or never even thought about. there might have even been another way or three also.

[Phariah]

Yes i stand by that there is a Black Council. there are way too many connections through out for it to be seperate independants workin towards similar goals or with the same realm.

multiple enemies on Demonreach workin together to pin down and attack Harry while seperating Morgan from them. with further goals of setting the Wampires up as a scapegoat to cause friction and possible renewal of conflict between court and council.

Cowl and his operative Malvorra and his flunky Madrigal raith were trying to claim responsibility for the culling of magic bloodlined humans. goal was to gain position in the wampires and to get them back into the war w/ the council.

Justin summoning HWWB an Outsider, Lord Raith summoning HWWB and Outsider, Cowl summoning Outsider and having Vitto possessed, unknown wizards backing the RC w/ summoned Outsiders. too many people doing it for it to be a coincidence.

interesting social networking going on pre-Harry. Maggie LeFey, Justin, Lord Raith and Arianna.

[ebliss1]

I don't buy b for an instant.

Harry spends all the time between GP and SK hunting a non-existent cure for Susan's condition. He spends more than ten years absolutely fixated on having killed Elaine, and in denial of evidence to the contrary.  Harry spending a few years hung up on a theory that is totally wrong is absolutely and utterly in character for Harry and fits with a lot of things Jim has put a fair amount of effort into setting up.

You are confusing Harry's time and effort with Jim's time and effort. Sure, Harry spent a lot of time on the cure and agonizing over Elaine's death - but that happened "off camera". Jim, however, has spent quite a lot of time and effort and lines of text on the Black Council. A paragraph about Harry feeling frustrated over not finding Susan's cure in a year's worth of trying is not the same as the pages and pages and pages of material Jim has produced on Harry trackign down the Black Council.

[dead beef]

i don't think there is a black council.  i think it is one singular person using everyone else around him to cause chaos for some reason I don't understand.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Yes i stand by that there is a Black Council. there are way too many connections through out for it to be seperate independants workin towards similar goals or with the same realm.

Only if you persist in ruling out the possibility of these independents being reasonably well informed and taking advantage of each other's plans.

multiple enemies on Demonreach workin together to pin down and attack Harry while seperating Morgan from them.

One of whom we know from Jim has intellectus (the skinwalker).  So there's no reason for it to have to be working with the others in order to know what their plans are.

with further goals of setting the Wampires up as a scapegoat to cause friction and possible renewal of conflict between court and council.
Cowl and his operative Malvorra and his flunky Madrigal raith were trying to claim responsibility for the culling of magic bloodlined humans. goal was to gain position in the wampires and to get them back into the war w/ the council.

No reason to think that only one person can think "hey, pointing the White Court at the White Council and getting them to fight would be a good way of hurting them".

Justin summoning HWWB an Outsider, Lord Raith summoning HWWB and Outsider, Cowl summoning Outsider and having Vitto possessed, unknown wizards backing the RC w/ summoned Outsiders. too many people doing it for it to be a coincidence.

Depends how widespread knowledge of Outsiders is.

Put it this way; if around the world on the same day, the IRA, ETA, some terrorist group in Indonesia, and some Mafiosi in Vegas all shoot different people with the same specific make of gun, does that mean they are all part of the same massive conspiracy ?

[ebliss1]

Put it this way; if around the world on the same day, the IRA, ETA, some terrorist group in Indonesia, and some Mafiosi in Vegas all shoot different people with the same specific make of gun, does that mean they are all part of the same massive conspiracy ?

YES! And if you listen to the democrats, its all Bush's fault!

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

You are confusing Harry's time and effort with Jim's time and effort. Sure, Harry spent a lot of time on the cure and agonizing over Elaine's death - but that happened "off camera". Jim, however, has spent quite a lot of time and effort and lines of text on the Black Council. A paragraph about Harry feeling frustrated over not finding Susan's cure in a year's worth of trying is not the same as the pages and pages and pages of material Jim has produced on Harry trackign down the Black Council.

But how much of any given individual book does Harry spend not knowing what's going on, trying to figure out what's going on, following wrong threads, making incomplete or wrong theories, and generally not having The Solution ?

I am inclined to say; the vast majority.

The thought that he could spend the majority of the series being totally wrong about major aspects of the overall series plot is entirely plausible to me.  The thought that he could spend four books plus the last little bit of another, out of a total of twenty-four or twenty-five, totally wrong about a amjor aspect of the plot seems trivially possible to me.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

YES! And if you listen to the democrats, its all Bush's fault!

That metaphor was not meant to go TT-wards; my apologies.