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Author Topic: (spoilers) Black Council  (Read 1717 times)
OlosBC
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« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2010, 10:05:46 AM »

How many books did we all go thinking that Morgan and Charity were complete irrevocable assholes?  And then, eventually, their true motives are shown, and we may not like them, but we are able to respect and trust them, and to understand their actions.  

I'm not sure where I stand on the subject of if the Black Council is a real entity.  There are definitely people moving things behind the scenes, but we have no evidence other than a convo between Harry and Eb that they are all working together.  I think it's entirely plausible that it could be several different people/beings or organizations making power plays, or it could be that those people formed together into a group to do all this stuff.

And as neuro said, have some faith, no matter how it turns out, it'll be awesome in the telling.
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sandman1313
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« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2010, 12:33:26 PM »

How many books did we all go thinking that Morgan and Charity were complete irrevocable assholes?  And then, eventually, their true motives are shown, and we may not like them, but we are able to respect and trust them, and to understand their actions. 



Just for the record i never though Morgan or Charity were "were complete irrevocable assholes". Did I think they tended to give Harry the short end of the stick and treat him unfairly? Yes, but the beauty of Jims work is that every character is human and therefor nuanced. Rember also that we r only getting one side of the story and the more info we get means that our views r going to change. For example i would not be shocked to find out that Nickodemius motives r not as solid black, read Evil, as the appear to be now.

However there appears to be way to much collusion going on in the back ground for there not to be some sort of conspiratorial group to be in play in fact we know there is one when cowl mentions the circle what else could it be.

Is it as all encompassing as harry believes that is debatable but we know there is something out there
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Der Sturmbrecher
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« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2010, 12:06:42 PM »

I'm fairly surprised; the opinions seem more evenly divided than I thought.

The term Black Council was dubbed by the Dresden 13th Airbourne as a name for a nameless group of conspirators with goals in common. Some of you tned to disagree with the idea of a large body being responsible for most of the problems in the books, but what about a smaller collusion?

Shagnasty doesn't strike me as a team player.
The Denarians seem too treacherous to be trustworthy beyond their own unit.

There do seem to be some connected events with a common theme, though:

-Aurora from Summer Knight
-Victor Sells
-Vittorio Malvora
-The Phobophages
-Peabody

Given that some connections do ap[pear, but not all, my current theory is that we may be looking at multiple entities which could qualify as a black council. Rebuttals?
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Tzarii
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« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2010, 03:33:08 PM »

DYNAMIC ENTRY INTO CONVERSATION! RAWR!

Myself after reading and listening (I have the audio books too, because they don't have the books over here but they do have the cds... Odd...) I have come with a few theories

Is there a Black Council?  Maybe, but from what I have seen and heard so far I am not so positive. Though in Changes we do see something start Mainly a grey council form up that is composed of individuals from what we can tell that actually do know more than Harry. but who is to say That some of them just joined in so that they could use Harry and or Eb and or his friends?


Three Theories I currently endorse in order of how heartily I endorse it.

1.  Cowl's "circle" is in reality the eleventy different cats paws he uses and maybe one or two entities he on occasion reports to.  While this doesn't sound like much it is more likely.  Cowl is the Dragon and who ever he reports to is a Big Bad (Maybe) My reasoning for this is based off of Cowl's reaction to others from Harry's observation. 
  A.  With the exception of Kumori (who is a wide eyed idealist gone horribly wrong IMHO) Cowl generally treats his underlings/allies/people who are less powerful then him like they are incompetent.  This extends to when they are doing a half decent job and they just didn't count on Harry actually having some over the top trick up his sleeve. 
  B.  We don't know enough about Cowl's actual identity to determine if the reason why some have been able to summon HWWB is because he is one of those somebodies, or if he was directly linked to them. That being said we still don't know how difficult it is to summon an outsider, other than it is a big no no and The Venatori try to prevent stuff like this at all cost making it even harder
  C.  We don't know how honest Cowl is.  Jim  we know is a huge geek and a star wars fan.  Cowl's politeness and niceness to Harry in DB (Before they get in a fight) could be a shout out to Vader.  An evil villian Cowl who is nick named Darth Bathrobe?  I wouldn't be surprised if he was the Vader to some unseen Emperor at this point.


2.  Cowl is a force of random in the Dresdenverse that will do anything to smash the White Council.  Therefore through enemy of my enemy is my homeboy theory Cowl could have been helping out the red court to go after the white council while masquerading as a member in order to sow discontent. This could be accomplished dominating Peabody in order to make the WC easy enough to crush or other fun ways of wrecking havoc. He finds a few people who also don't like the white council that he sees as usable and manipulable that he brings in on to help him take it down in whatever way possible.  This would include him teaching how to summon outsiders to people fighting the white council to him engineering schemes that would piss off the white council eventually (Like teaching Victor Sells how to do the exploding heart technique or giving the belts to the FBI)  As a result of his zealous desires he has gotten over his head and has to report to some person who is in turn using him.

3. Cowl is crazy, he was a diciple of Kemmler after all.  As a result he has gone full blown crazy complete with imaginary vegetable friends that he assumes are real and therefore makes up this deal about being part of something greater.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 04:56:40 PM by Tzarii » Logged

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ClintACK
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« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2010, 05:02:41 PM »

How many books did we all go thinking that Morgan and Charity were complete irrevocable assholes?  And then, eventually, their true motives are shown, and we may not like them, but we are able to respect and trust them, and to understand their actions.  

It will be very interesting to learn what Cowl's motivations are.
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Tzarii
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« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2010, 06:01:40 PM »

I think that is a core issue, Cowl's true motivation.
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« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2010, 06:41:43 PM »

I personally believe that the Outsiders are using various groups that make up the "black council". This circle of Cowl's is one group that was probably set up by Cowl, Simon DuMorne and Maggie Sr.

Lord Raith and Maggie Sr. obviously had a connection proven by Thomas's existence. Also, Arianna Ortega had a connection with Maggie Sr. according to McCoy.
This equals one group of Outsider puppets.
Dark Hallow:
Vitto Malvora: expendable resource for Cowls Circle of Outsider Puppets.

Mavra: seeks vengeance and restoration of the Black Court with her as Black Queen. No Outsiders.(Just a guess)

Nicodemus: seeks to bring about his own apocalypse. This means that he doesn't want someone Else to pull off an apocalypse, unless it coincides with what he wants. I doubt he is working with or is a puppet of the outsiders.
Aurora: Outsider possessed. Tried to upset balance. (However one of the Nicklehead's coins could explain her actions somewhat)

When I think of more I'll post.

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ClintACK
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« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2010, 07:29:07 PM »

Nicodemus: seeks to bring about his own apocalypse. This means that he doesn't want someone Else to pull off an apocalypse, unless it coincides with what he wants. I doubt he is working with or is a puppet of the outsiders.

Seems like Thorned Namshiel was the Denarian working with the Outsiders/(so-called-Black Council)/whatever.

Nicodemus seemed genuinely shocked when Harry told him that hellfire had been used to assault Arctis Tor.

Of course, he's two thousand years old and an evil mastermind.  And Harry's pretty easy to lie to, for a professional P.I.
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Cristoval
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« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2010, 07:32:01 PM »

Quote
Seems like Thorned Namshiel was the Denarian working with the Outsiders/(so-called-Black Council)/whatever.

Nicodemus seemed genuinely shocked when Harry told him that hellfire had been used to assault Arctis Tor.

Of course, he's two thousand years old and an evil mastermind.  And Harry's pretty easy to lie to, for a professional P.I.

I agree that Thorned Namshiel was the traitor, however, I could also see him as the scapegoat. There maybe more than one traitor in the non-outsider puppets groups.
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« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2010, 10:12:03 AM »

Seems like Thorned Namshiel was the Denarian working with the Outsiders/(so-called-Black Council)/whatever.

Seems like Mab feels Harry the information to "deduce" this, does not confirm it directly, and pretty much immediately after hits him with a major distraction; it looks like misdirection to me.

I think Namshiel, or whoever the Denarian attacking Arctis Tor was, was working for Mab.
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« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2010, 10:13:35 AM »

actually it was book 3 or 4 don't have the direct quote atm have to look it up. he talks about someone teaching Sells and Kravos and giving out wolf belt to the FBI. he says the someone is behind it all. and it still cannot be disproved that there is a Black Council.

He suggests there might be a common enemy as early as the end of FM, IIRC. 

Harry thinking something might be the case is not proof that it is real.

Harry thinking something is the case is not proof that it is real.

We have Word of Jim Harry is not omniscient.
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kustenjaeger
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« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2010, 10:50:56 AM »

Greetings

Even Harry in Changes refers to the Black Council as "mostly a hypothetical organization ... I had encountered members of their team, but I had no proof of their existence, and neither did anyone else."

Regards

Edward
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Lind
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« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2010, 12:38:05 PM »

Quote
1 Does it exist?

Yes

Quote
1 A If so, what is it's ultimate agenda? Distributing hexenwulfen belts, exploding heart curses, and the other chaotic muck we've seen makes for great novels, but what is the ultimate point?

Control of most of, if not all of, the supernatural world.  That which they cannot control they will cripple and/or attempt to destroy.  Whenever possible, they have contingency plans and play all angles trying to come out ahead even in losses.  On the side they also dabble with power acquisition to further their ends and frequently destabilize the current balance of power in order to make control easier. 

Power plays and events in the Dresdenverse from this context.

Storm Front is Dresden blundering in to what is effectively a BC power experiment.  Through a catspaw Victor Sells, the BC is playing both with third eye and entropy magic.

Fool Moon is something special.  I'll explain my theory in 1B

Grave Peril is where a lot of things happen and the BC starts to really put its plan in to motion.  An attempt to remove one of the knights swords and the likelyhood of war are the obvious things.  The gift of the athame to Lea was their opening bid on controlling the Faerie courts.  (Ideally Lea controlled through the athame would gain control of Winter.  As a back up plan, if Lea fails, Mab gains the athame and the BC has another route to their pawn of a Winter Queen)  Whatever got handed to Ferrovax is their play on the dragons.

Sumer Knight a continuation on the play on Faerie.  Destablization and the movement of one of their pawns up the ladder in Summer.  Strengthening of Winter for when the Athame plan played out.

Death Masks is not related to the BC. 

Ditto for Blood Rights.  This is just general politics and supernatural goings on, although possibly more entropy magic experimentation and possibly Marva.

Dead Beat is a reactive power play.  This one might not have started with the BC but the BC had to get involved to either take the power of a dark hallow for itself or keep it out of the hands of the other Kemmler disciples.

Proven Guilty contains fall out of the Athame plan going sour.  Maybe Mab was to strong to be controlled, maybe Mab was never meant to receive the Athame in the first place.  Whatever the case, the BC storms Arctis Tor to correct the problem in a smash what they can't control bid (which is also not quite successful).  Harry merely sees the aftermath.

White Night is the BC's attempt to gain control of the White Court.  When it fails the super ghouls are the smash what they cannot control alternative.

Small Favor was the BC's attempt to gain control of the Archive.  If the attempts to break Ivy had been successful, BC members of the Fallen would have been in control.

Turn Coat was a crack in the BC's control of the White Council.  I don't know if LaFortier was beginning to figure things out or if the BC simply wanted a member directly on the Senior Council, but thats where the book starts.  The rest of it is about maintaining the control they have through Peabody and a smash attempt with the mordite/mist fiend when he is discovered.

Changes is the BC playing the Red Court and the White Council off against each other on crack.  If Ortega had succeeded, the BC got its pawn in control of the Red Court and did some serious damage to the White Council through plauge and black staff elimination.  As it played out, the BC instead got its destroy what it could not control back up plan employed as well as getting its hooks into Dresden. (more on that below)

Quote
1 B Who is involved?

Cowl.  The Circle is the Black Council.  I favor the theory that he is Simon from Arch Angel.

Maybe Marva.  I can go either way on this.  I can make a case for her just being out to protect herself in Dead Beat.  Alternatively she is BC and another part of the BC plan to acquire the Dark Hallow/prevent others from getting it.  Either way Marva was only in Blood Rights for the blackmail opportunity on Dresden which was used in Dead Beat.

Odin.  My theory is he is BC in a big way and is pulling many of the strings.  There is no reason he should know as much as he does about what the Red Court was doing in Changes.  He is positioned near Eb to retrieve the Black Staff if the bloodline curse had killed Eb or to simply point a grief maddened Eb at the Red King if Harry died en route but before the curse went off.  Quite possibly important, he maneuvers Harry into accepting food and drink.  I speculate that this is Odin's intended route for Harry's resurrection and it will let Odin get his hooks firmly into Harry.

Getting back to Fool Moon... the Wolf Belts are Odin's.  The point of the entire book is that the incident is something manageable by Dresden but convinces Marcone that he needs something to handle the supernatural.  The result is it gives Gard a plausible reason for being in Chicago and a reason for her to interact with Harry.  And Odin and the BC have plans for Harry if none of their other plans kill him (permanently) first... Outsiderbanes don't exactly grow on trees...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 12:51:03 PM by Lind » Logged
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh
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« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2010, 12:41:20 PM »

Mavra wasn't in DM, I think you mean BR.

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Lind
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« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2010, 12:49:35 PM »

Whoops.  You are right.  Editing original post
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