Nicodemus, How's the head? (small favor spoilers)

[spartan9mm]

Were I harry I would have tied the damn noose to the side of the boat and then tossed him overboard and dragged his strangled purple carcase all over lake michigan.

[davetheyogi]

Awesome. Talk about extreme fishing.

Yeah, from a story arc point of view I can totally understand keeping Nic in the game.
But it just brings me back to watching the old Friday the 13th's when I was a kid, screaming at them, 'Dismember the corpse and burn the pieces, you retard!'

[Orbweaver]

But he was passed out and the noose was still tighted whilst he was under water... hence still doing damage until he was pulled out... then you're dealing with a wet coiled rope that probably swelled a bit from the water.  Have fun getting that noose knot undone without cutting the noose off.

Yes. Harry pulled the Noose tight enough so that Nicodemus passed out-

Or tight enough so that Nicodemus was able to convince him he'd passed out. There's another whole thing where Nicodemus noticed Harry's pocket was picked while Thorned Namshiel was distracting him with a strangulation method... right before Harry attempted to strangle Nicodemus.

Am I the only one who found that scene entirely to Nicodemus' advantage? I do think he's vulnerable to the noose. I don't think strangulation is the problem.

Obviously, something did happen to Nicodemus while he was under water. My best guess is that Anduriel loosened the noose if necessary, or it got caught on something that allowed Nic's air passage to open up. Still, Deedee was ticked off. Or acting that way for Harry's benefit.

[spartan9mm]

I can beleive the whole faking it thing but I doubt it.  Nicks head had changed colors to a completely dead color.  its not the airway but the blood flow as well.  I think the noose which even shiro said would do him harm really messed him up.  If harry kept going until the head fell off then it would be over but just choking him out like that wouldn't be enough to take out the most powerful of the nickleheads.

[BobForPresident]

but do you guys really think Nicodemus survived all this time by letting what he was afraid of control him?

Nikky's never been beaten this badly before. And it's likely nobody else knows about the noose thing (which makes about as much sense to me as the fact that Harry hasn't TOLD anybody else about it, but there you go).

So my point is that Nicodemus (at least not since getting a coin) has never really had to deal with fear of death like this. And Harry's almost bumped him off twice.

[Landing]

Nikky's never been beaten this badly before. And it's likely nobody else knows about the noose thing (which makes about as much sense to me as the fact that Harry hasn't TOLD anybody else about it, but there you go).

So my point is that Nicodemus (at least not since getting a coin) has never really had to deal with fear of death like this. And Harry's almost bumped him off twice.

How do we know that Nico hasn't been beaten this badly before? We know next to nothing about his past. (and I agree with you that nobody else ever figuring out about the noose doesn't make much sense.) 

[Tree]

maybe instead of always trying to strangle him with it by hand they should instead hang him on it. with his hands tied behind his back. Old school and effective.

[davetheyogi]

Speculating that someone MUST have figured out the whole 'grab-Nic-by-his-string-tie-and-don't-let-go' strategy doesn't take into account how special Harry may be.

How many people have gone toe-to-toe with Nic more than once? In the books, only Shiro.
And who's gonna go for the choke when you have a holy sword?

How many people have withstood and eventually overcome one of the fallen?
And the only reason Nic got so close to Harry in S.F. was that he 'knew' that the fallen in Harry's head would knock him out when the time came. Harry will not get that chance again.

And we all know that we have not learned everything about Harry.

[sjmcc13]

I do not think Harry is the only one who has figured out the noose weakness, I think that is probably one of the reasons he keeps destroying the churches records, because someone figures it out, and he needs to remove the records of his vulnerability.

also one thing that strikes me as odd is the Deidre tells the goons to hold their fire while Harry is chocking Nick, for fear of them hitting him, but that should not matter, as the noose should still protect against them. Unless of course Harry is wrong about the noose's weakness, and while it is tightened all its benefits are removed, if someone shot/stabbed/decapitated/etc.  Nick while being strangled he could die from that wound.

[Orbweaver]

Speculating that someone MUST have figured out the whole 'grab-Nic-by-his-string-tie-and-don't-let-go' strategy doesn't take into account how special Harry may be.

How many people have gone toe-to-toe with Nic more than once? In the books, only Shiro.
And who's gonna go for the choke when you have a holy sword?

You go for whatever you think will be an advantage. Shiro was an excellent swordsman- but so is Michael, and he considered himself only a mild challenge to Nicodemus. Considering how long both the Knights and the Coins have been around, I'd state that at least one other Knight went up against Nicodemus more than once (not counting Sanya). Not to mention that Nicodemus has had to deal with several traitors inside the Denarians, where his plans were concerned. The noose thing is probably the first tactic people try when they get close enough to grab a hold of it.

How many people have withstood and eventually overcome one of the fallen?

"Michael, do you really expect me to believe that the Church was there to document every single instance of someone picking up a coin? Hell, gotten it notorized?"- SmF, page 399. This is Jim, letting us know that Harry is not the first person to overcome a fallen's shadow.

And the only reason Nic got so close to Harry in S.F. was that he 'knew' that the fallen in Harry's head would knock him out when the time came. Harry will not get that chance again.

This was just plain arrogance on Nicodemus' part. He expected Lasciel's shadow to simply do what he ordered it to do. Even if Harry had Lash as an occupant in his mind, there's no guarantee she'd have gone along with it. Nicodemus had Harry bent over backwards at the moment he gave that order- and Harry had acknowledged, as early as the Shedd, that Nicodemus could kill him quite easily. Until the sword actually lit up, he had nothing to fear from Dresden.

And we all know that we have not learned everything about Harry.

Oh, definitely. I don't think even Harry knows everything about himself. Please note that I don't intend for this to sound arrogant or unfriendly towards you, I just see a lot of counterpoints to the post.

[Orbweaver]

I can beleive the whole faking it thing but I doubt it.  Nicks head had changed colors to a completely dead color.  its not the airway but the blood flow as well.  I think the noose which even shiro said would do him harm really messed him up.  If harry kept going until the head fell off then it would be over but just choking him out like that wouldn't be enough to take out the most powerful of the nickleheads.

Holding your breath is one way to cause skin discoloration like that, but there are other ways it can be done. Particularly if Nick had gotten any of the Water Beetle's oil on him at any point- Harry did mention there was an awful lot of it just on the key that started the boat's engine.

[ballplayer72]

Holding your breath is one way to cause skin discoloration like that, but there are other ways it can be done. Particularly if Nick had gotten any of the Water Beetle's oil on him at any point- Harry did mention there was an awful lot of it just on the key that started the boat's engine.

and the fact that all the other denarians can shapeshift.  Why not just shapeshift his face purple?

[BlahBlah]

I, for one, was shocked when I heard WoJ that Nic was still alive, and I cannot imagine that he simply smeared engine oil on his face or shape-shifted his face black.

Ghost story speculation:  If Nic sustained brain injury, then he could be in a coma or catatonic state similar to Beckett Jr.  

And if Nic is trapped in a coma, then he will probably make his reappearance in GS.

[Orbweaver]

I, for one, was shocked when I heard WoJ that Nic was still alive, and I cannot imagine that he simply smeared engine oil on his face or shape-shifted his face black.

Ghost story speculation:  If Nic sustained brain injury, then he could be in a coma or catatonic state similar to Beckett Jr.  

And if Nic is trapped in a coma, then he will probably make his reappearance in GS.

Because Anduriel can't heal a brain injury?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Holding your breath is one way to cause skin discoloration like that, but there are other ways it can be done.

Particularly if you have a helpful Fallen Angel able to change your appearance.

Anduriel making Nicodemus look really dead when Nicodemus is actually only mostly dead works for me.