harry's past

[Joefoe]

Nuero Jumping back in here. You have said that they want harry for their plans, to use him as a threat to control the outsiders. If you want to threaten the oputsiders with him then you need him to be willing or able to be directed when and where you want him to go. harry is not going to sit down and say ok I will ignore this set of outsiders but not this one here. He will not let his world be attacked without him trying to stop it unless he sees a bigger goal involved and has a reason behind the suffering.
If he is a loose cannon, he will attack whomever he sees as the biggest threat to his power and what he sees is his entitlement. And I will ask you this. If you had the power over a god, would you allow that god to do others bidding or would you tell that god where to go and what to do...
Again you need to have Harry invested in your visions to allow them to pass otherwise he will A) stop the outsiders carte blanche or B)If he is a loose cannon lookig for power he wil grab the reigns of the outsiders and do what he damn well pleases.
You seem to assume that just allowing the outsiders in is the goal of the BC, but if that was the case they would not need Harry or anyother outsiders bane because there would be no need to control them.

Joe

[neurovore]

Nuero Jumping back in here. You have said that they want harry for their plans, to use him as a threat to control the outsiders. If you want to threaten the oputsiders with him then you need him to be willing or able to be directed when and where you want him to go.

Why ?

You could just point out to them "Here's this guy. He's dangerous. Here's what he's done so far to prove it. If you mess about enar him he will find you and take you out."

harry is not going to sit down and say ok I will ignore this set of outsiders but not this one here.

No, but if he's only informed about one set and not the others ?

Again you need to have Harry invested in your visions to allow them to pass

No, you don't. You just need to control his access to information.

Let me put it this way; imagine Cowl talking to HWWB, thus:

Option a) "Here is a mortal wizard.  You can see he's a mortal wizard.  You know how vulnerable mortals are, but take my word for it, this one will flatten you if you don't do as I say."

Option b) "Scary how half a dozen of your guys got flattened the other night, isn't it ? Yes, we know the guy who did it.  He's taken out a Faerie Queen, got the best of Fallen angels a couple of times... yeah, and he really hates you guys.  Yes, I can probably help you stay out of his way. You just work along with us here and you should be fine."

Either seems workable to me, and option b) does seem more in keeping with what we see of "Black Council" methodology; not challenging directly but playing people off against each other.

You seem to assume that just allowing the outsiders in is the goal of the BC, but if that was the case they would not need Harry or anyother outsiders bane because there would be no need to control them.

I have no strong preference between the theory that the Circle/"Black Council" want Outsiders in to destroy the world and remake it for Outsiders to live in, dedicated nihilistic religious zealot types, or the theory that the Circle/"Black Council" want the Outsiders to come in and want to be able to conquer the world in their name, other than that the existence of OutsiderBane(s) in the first place points at the latter.

Joe
[/quote]

[Joefoe]

I think there are enough instance of harry getting information that the circle does not want him to have, and enough possibility of it happeneing that any person worth their salt, read Cowl, or his superiors, would know that it is a temporary and risky proposition. There are many persons working against the BC, as well as Supernatural entities including but not limited to the WG, Wotan, Possibly Buddha(foo dog as a prtoector) Mab, and possibly the Queen mothers. While some may be able to be cornered or controlled not all of them can be, and it only would take one slip for the mess to unravel and harry to suddenly start sending all of your outsiders back behind the gates.
Or the outsiders to say, who are you pesky mortal to think that you can command us. kill the entire black council and then work behind the scenes. It seems very risky and dependent on the nature of a being(s) that you cannot have control over without having your insurance policy willing to follow your orders or working to meet your agenda, to set up that situation.
You also seem to think that Harry's meer presence is enough to shake up the outsiders, I read it as though while most people do not have a chance against them, Harry does, not that he can immediately kill or banish them just that he can through hard work and planning hold his own.
Joe

[neurovore]

I think there are enough instance of harry getting information that the circle does not want him to have,

Thing is, I do not see one unarguable instance of this except for the ending of WN.

[Joefoe]

The entire set up of white night, small favor, unless you think that the circle actively wanted to lose their contact in the denarian inner circle, Uriel's interventions, finding he has a brother-hard to be antagonistic and selfish if you have a family member that you care for and that cares for you, The presentation that Maggie made for him and thomas. ect.
There are numerous ways he has and will continue to get info that is not circel approved. And these are realy changing Harry's base instincts and reactions in different situations

[neurovore]

small favor, unless you think that the circle actively wanted to lose their contact in the denarian inner circle,

I think the "Black Council" actively wanted that to end up with ivy set up to go on a roaring rampage of Denarian-hunting revenge; fits right in with their divide-and-conquer policy elswhere.

finding he has a brother-hard to be antagonistic and selfish if you have a family member that you care for and that cares for you

Yes, but as Harry also realises on the way home from the Raith mansion, a brother is a handle for people to threaten him through. A brother is family he can lose.

[Joefoe]

That may handle one instance, but it does not perclude the presence of the WG, Mab calling in her favor, Uriel's involvement, or the other interventions that made the situation possible. That is an aweful lot of coincidences that the circle would have had to influence just to get Ivy off of the island, let alone have Harry there and able to do it without the assistance of those above.

Family may be a duel edged sword but it gives people strength of will to fight their darker impulses, a person to look to when times are tough, and a person to want to be a better person for. harry was easier to manipulate without family then he is with them. He will not allow people to be killed now when he knows what a family is. He is less a loose cannon now then he has ever been before and this is not benefitting the circle, uless they are trying to sell a particular image of utopia to Harry which he whole heartedly believes in.

Joe