(spoilers) Black Council

[Cristoval]

Outsiderbanes don't exactly grow on trees...

We actually don't know how many Outsiderbanes there are. There isn't any legal way to test wizards. As for the outsiders helping the red court, I have a feeling that very few wizards actually tried to fight them with magic alone.

[Phariah]

He suggests there might be a common enemy as early as the end of FM, IIRC. 

Harry thinking something might be the case is not proof that it is real.

Harry thinking something is the case is not proof that it is real.

We have Word of Jim Harry is not omniscient.

please don't take my quotes out of context. i used that statement to counter you saying that Harry only had thoughts of a conspiracy for  books 8-13. which u say is 1/4 of the series. ( which is also wrong as that is 1/2 of the current series since the last is not yet written. so for you to say as a whole is very much a false statement. ) not as proof of a conspiracy.

this is your statement that was countered

I will note, also, that your claim of a twenty-three year long wild goose chase is hyperbolic to some extent.  We are talking a theory Harry comes up with at the very end of book 8 that could be disproved as early as book 13; less than a quarter of the series as a whole is not that long for Harry to have the wrong idea about something major.

as you say he had thoughts of a conspiracy since the end of FM. so that would than be books 2-13. so yes it would be most of the series at this point.

[Der Sturmbrecher]

We have Word of Jim Harry is not omniscient.

Not that we really needed that one... 

Interesting stuff. I really need to reread the books, my memory is already going...

So new question: if the Black Council doesn't exist, then who is the main archnemesis/faction in the stories? As likely as it is that we have insufficient data, I'm just asking about ideas.

If the Black Council Does exist, are they the ultimate nemesis, or just another independent group of bad guys causing trouble?

Is it possible that there is no one group we have seen which will yet be the antagonist in the apocalyptic trilogy?

OR...

Will the BAT have Harry as the antagonist? He's been getting into darker and darker stuff, bending and breaking his own rules. Will he go all the way?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

So new question: if the Black Council doesn't exist, then who is the main archnemesis/faction in the stories? As likely as it is that we have insufficient data, I'm just asking about ideas.

There isn't one.  There is a more complex political landscape than that, and the ending will be much more complex than Good Guys vs. Bad Guys.

[Der Sturmbrecher]

There isn't one.  There is a more complex political landscape than that, and the ending will be much more complex than Good Guys vs. Bad Guys.

You don't need it to be straight out Good Guys vs Bad guys to have an effective primary antagonist. For all we know, Harry eventually becomes the dark wizard he used to fear becoming and has to be redeemed or killed. Point, though, is who will the ultimate conflict be with?

[ClintACK]

So new question: if the Black Council doesn't exist, then who is the main archnemesis/faction in the stories? As likely as it is that we have insufficient data, I'm just asking about ideas.

I think it's He Who Walks Behind, and the Old Ones he serves.

To the extent that there is a "Black Council" -- it's just those who have been corrupted by the Outsiders, like Cowl and Vitto Malvora and the Fetch.

I'd guess we're building towards a final trilogy in which the Old Ones are trying to recapture our world -- with Harry, as an outsiderbane and a powerful wizard, playing a crucial role.

But I could be completely wrong.  The big bad could be Ferrovax, or Dracul...

[Archangel62]

I have had a few different theories on the black council, they are as follows.

1) The black council is a dark mirror of the white council, essentially a sort of mutual aid society for warlocks and such and they aim to bring down the White Council to allow them total freedom in magic, or to create a new council with new rules, perhaps with aims at dominating humanity.

2) The black council isn't a group per se, think of it more like certain beings that have arrangements. They might offer help to one another or trade for knowledge/relics/etc. but each one is thinking they're using the others. Cowl might be a big player in this or he might be indirectly involved, perhaps an agent or someone seeking to take advantage.

3) The Black Council isn't a counter-group. It's actually a collection of magical mercenaries, think Binder but with a bit less morality and a bit more law breaking rather than just bending. They offer their services to different groups in the nevernever, supernatural troubleshooters that can be paid in pacts, relics, knowledge, or hiding places. The thing is that they were fairly surreptitious about it, they only came to the fore now because so much turmoil is occurring that they're getting drawn out. Not to mention that the odd behavior of the supernatural might just be them being forced to change plans as they realized their troubleshooters seem to serve a few more masters than just them. The Black Council isn't out to destroy the White Council, though they wouldn't mind if it went down in flames.

4) The Black council is actually made up, initially at least, of some idealists from the White Council and some who want to wreck the current order and accords. The idealists might be like Maggie who saw that there were ways that magic could be abused without breaking the laws. Others want it ended because it shelters predators and monsters like the denarians, vampires, and other monstrosities and allows them to prey on mortals who can't defend themselves. Other groups want a freer system, where they don't have to bow to niceties and other beings, in essence avoid having to not be a monster. And some might just want the freedom of magic, to not be constrained by what they see as silly rules. Basically magical anarchists with idealists with monsters, a volatile mix and also why it might seem to have contradictory membership.

5) The Black council isn't an organization exactly. Instead various individuals are being manipulated by Outsiders. The Outsiders are bound by the outer gates, only able to be summoned by mortals. In this scenario the Outsiders are manipulating different individual players to a common goal. Start wars, destabilize power groups, wreck different organizations. Their goal is to make it so that people are increasingly willing to try summoning an outsider for help, they do this more and more often, more outsiders are freed and more importantly they can manipulate further. The ultimate goal is essentially to destroy or greatly weaken the seals of the outer gates as well as wrecking each and every power group so that no one group is strong enough to face them and overcome them. It also will likely destroy a lot of knowledge and information, a win win for them all around.

[SpiritSAS]

1 Does it exist?

I think it does, in one form or another.  Other White Counsil members have come across enough information on their own that they too are seeing that there seems to be an organized group out there working against the WC.  Who was Peabody working for, for example?

1 A If so, what is it's ultimate agenda? Distributing hexenwulfen belts, exploding heart curses, and the other chaotic muck we've seen makes for great novels, but what is the ultimate point?

As with many dark conspiracy groups in the past, the various members may have their own agendas, motives, ultimate goals etc.  The one thing they seem to agree on is destroying the WC to be able to gain power and influence unopposed.  The Red Court, which may or may not have been a part of the BC, is now gone.  The connection in all the items noted (belts, heart curses, etc) is to break down society, cause chaos, and basically make humanity a bunch of easy and unorganized targets with no protection.  Perhaps the various BC members plan to divide up the world.  The Black Court preys here, Zombies are made in this sector, etc.  It's all about power and the ability to do whatever they want to whoever they want.

1 B Who is involved?

I think it's a loose, but well coordinated, group that includes the Black Court, major warlocks (like Cowl), various powerful entities from the Never Never.  They had to have been very powerful to have successfully attack the Winter Queen strong hold and destroy so many of her "soldiers". The Nickleheads are probably part of this but there would have to have been others to mount such an attack.  Perhaps the Erlking and, of course, whoever the Outsiders are suppose to be.

1 C When did this body form?

I think its beginnings, we'll find, go way back, to well before Storm Front per se.  It's simply grown in numbers and power over the years.  HD has been mostly successful in battling their plans in Chicago, other WC wizards have probably had their run ins (some not survivable) all over the world, and the Knights of the cross have probably fought against them at times, even if unaware of the bigger picture (which is quite ironic).

2 If not, then are the incidents related by Harry to be connected the work of different parties, or just one person as opposed to a council?

I don't think this is a reasonable starting premise to think this way.  I think JB has been slowly building up the BC in the backdrop of the HD stories and because we're only getting this one perspective, we can't yet see the bigger picture.  JB never goes off to run with parallel stories where we see things brewing or get to see other character's perspectives.  We only see and learn what HD sees and learns from his actions, thoughts, and conversations.  We are dropped clues, now and again, but often we are not given enough information as it is not presented to HD.  Which is why he has his character think through things to help supply the probably missing pieces of each puzzle.  The whold BC is just a bigger puzzle to which we are only getting a few pieces at a time and they all don't reside in the same part of the puzzle.  Hence, things seem too disjointed for some to see the connections well enough to even believe their is a BC (like the Senior Council members - well some of them). 

[Archangel62]

An odd thought strikes me, could it be sort of its own version of the Unseelie accords. Mab mentioned her rage at the Denarians for violating 'her' accords. Part of me wonders if the black council might be sort of its own accords between power groups with radically different aims.