Comments thread for "The Laws of Magic: Part 8 of 8"

[iago]

The Seventh Law of Magic is: Never Seek Knowledge and Power from Beyond the Outer Gates.

http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/news/archives/2007/10/the_laws_of_mag_5.php

[Rel Fexive]

Ooooh.... nifty.

Far too many 'grand villain' concepts will be born of that one! I should know, I have one already

[Simon Hogwood]

But players can also stumble across the Seventh Law, thanks to the particulars of its wording—namely, the prohibition against even researching the Outside.

I'm assuming this "wording'' refers to the fact that the Seventh Law forbids "Seeking Knowledge . . . from Beyond the Outer Gates". However, it seems to me that seeking knowledge from Beyond is not quite the same as seeking knowledge about it. Kind of like the difference between knowing theoretically how to build a bomb and actually building one. This brings up the question of why one would want to research the Ousiders, though. "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents" and all that.

The stuff about there being an actual artifact called a Blackstaff that the Blackstaff wields is neat, too*. Could there then be an unoffical/homebuilt version floating about somewhere? Maybe not even a copy (if it's so secret), but something someone came up with independently? Of course, the likelyhood of this is dependent on what it actually does.


*Did y'all make this up for the game, or is this another one of those details I glossed over reading the books?

[iago]

The stuff about there being an actual artifact called a Blackstaff that the Blackstaff wields is neat, too*.

(snip)

*Did y'all make this up for the game, or is this another one of those details I glossed over reading the books?

I believe it to be canonical or, at the very least, Jim-confirmed.

[hollow49]

I notice one key fact from the books that has not made it into the write-up here - that it is specifically mortal (human) magic that can open the gates. Most of the preternatural nasties around couldn't get hold of an outsider even if they wanted to. The fact that the vampires had aid from Outsiders was proof that there was a renegade wizard allied with them, back in Dead Beat. It seems very siginificant to me, somehow, that the most powerful supernatural monsters of them all are trapped, unable to escape without human intervention.

[iago]

I notice one key fact from the books that has not made it into the write-up here - that it is specifically mortal (human) magic that can open the gates. Most of the preternatural nasties around couldn't get hold of an outsider even if they wanted to. The fact that the vampires had aid from Outsiders was proof that there was a renegade wizard allied with them, back in Dead Beat. It seems very siginificant to me, somehow, that the most powerful supernatural monsters of them all are trapped, unable to escape without human intervention.

Oh hey! That's an excellent point.

[Slife]

That's one law I parsed a little differently.  I interpreted it as seeking knowledge and power while you yourself were beyond the outer gates.

[iago]

That's one law I parsed a little differently.  I interpreted it as seeking knowledge and power while you yourself were beyond the outer gates.

As I understand it, an individual fitting that description would last about 3 miliseconds there.

[Slife]

As I understand it, an individual fitting that description would last about 3 miliseconds there.

Hence why it's banned.  Of course, just because the individual didn't last, doesn't mean the body didn't.  And the body is of Earth...

[Kristine]

As I understand it, an individual fitting that description would last about 3 miliseconds there.

Hence why it's banned.  Of course, just because the individual didn't last, doesn't mean the body didn't.  And the body is of Earth...

Yep, end up with a bad guy like the 'demon' from the movie Fallen with Denzel Washington.  though He Who Follows Behind didn't seem to be that...well...self aware.  More like something powerful that follows the instructions of the one who let/pulled it in. 

It would be kind of an interesting twist to make one of these 'Powerful Evil Things' actually just wants to go home/back outside.  The thing has to complete it's mission or it is stuck here as a shadow following it's prey in an insubstantial form until someone comes along and re-powers it.

Just a thought.

[Empty Knight]

Even doing research on the Outside is verboten, setting aside actually pulling power from there.

I think this part goes too far. You might as well just say, "As soon as you see an Outsider commit suicide because you are not allowed to do any research to tell you how to protect yourself."

I believe this law should apply to attempting to reach through the Outer Gates to the beings there trying to gain knowledge or power. It should not apply to studying all information available on the Outsiders in our reality. If you can't study them how do you defend against them? It is said in the books that mortal magic is the only thing that can open the gates or summon them, but also that mortal magic has a LOT of trouble fighting them. So I can't believe the Law was written to stop people from learning how to protect themselves. So I would read all I could get my hands on in terms of known Outsider encounters. Conflicts involving Outsiders, such as the retreat in DB when the Merlin and the Gatekeeper stopped them with a Ward. How did they know what ward to use? How did they know the ward would be affective? Answer, they did research on the Outsiders and knew which magic and wards would work.

But if all you do is read up on known battles with Outsiders to find out what wards and magic  are effective against them, even a little, and so as long as you do not attempt to open the gates, and or contact any powers beyond the Outer gates you should not be in violation of this Law.

[iago]

I think this part goes too far.

Harry Dresden might agree with you.

The Merlin and other members of the Senior Council think otherwise.

[Lord Nedd]

The biggest problem with the Outsider issue is we don't really know how the interact with mortalkind.  We don't where that slippery slope is from reading about them and studying them vs. calling upon them to do our bidding.  JimB of course knows.  Perhaps Merlin knows from second hand knowledge.

Perhaps even reading about them draws their attention to you.  (Oooo.  How Lovecraftian!)  Perhaps the line between research and enslavement is too fine.

Sometimes it is best just not to know something at all.  In a Lovecraftian world, ignorance is bliss till a tentacled monstrocity eats your face off.  But maybe the act of researching them is what makes them eat your face off, and they would mostly leave you alone otherwise.

Thoughtful,

-LN

[Slife]

Harry Dresden might agree with you.

The Merlin and other members of the Senior Council think otherwise.

Of course, you could skew the meaning a different way.

"But Morgan, I'm not seeking knowledge from beyond the outer gates.  All the knowledge I'm seeking is from Earth.  It might be knowledge *about* the outer gates, but there's a big difference there.  Really.  It's just like there's a big difference between reanimating a dinosaur and reanimating a human."

[Empty Knight]

The Merlin and other members of the Senior Council think otherwise.

Okay, then can I have their emergency contact information so they can come save me when an Outsider shows up? 

Makes me glad that in RPGs the general rule of thumb is that the rules are Guidelines and not carved in stone.

Please be aware though that I am not arguing that a raw rank apprentice should be involved in this kind of study. I can see the Merlin and Senior Council believing that only someone who is already very well grounded and stable, with decent experience, should be involved in this kind of research. But if they are going to ban all research then I sincerely hope that they are making information available on what defenses do work.